your pastor is an introvert: quiet leadership & meaningful impact

A2: What's going on, everybody? This is A2. Today's conversation is with Mike Signorelli. In meeting him for the first time last winter and understanding his view of the world, I discovered his introverted nature, and I related with this so well. We talked about the implication of being an introvert in a service-driven occupation, as well as the mental healthiness that it takes to accept the different facets of your personality.

A2: You're a pastor, and you had mentioned that you are an introvert. I want you to define "introvert," and I'd also like you to just define your version of an introvert. Because I relate to that, since I'm an introvert too. It really intrigued me because you're a pastor and you're a public figure, but at the same time, there's a different side that not a lot of people might have context on.

Mike: I took the Arno profile test recently. I paid to have it done. It's like a comprehensive—I recommend anyone check it out because it was borderline psychic, it was so accurate. I was like, "This thing..." It's called the Arno Profile.

A2: Where is that in comparison to like MBTI or StrengthsFinder? Have you done any of those?

Mike: Yeah, I have. I've done them all. Arno's personally my favorite because Arno really goes into your inborn personality—like, beyond the layers of culture. What are you, right? And when I got my results back, it was just incredible. But it really proved... the funny thing is, the person that gave me the results, she was like, "You're incredibly introverted." She was shocked, almost like, "Wow, like this is a true thing." And yet, the sphere in which I operate and live, you would never know.

So here's my true definition—this is my definition of being an introvert, I'm sure it's different for everyone. But being an introvert is not not liking people, because I think a lot of times that's... I love people. But from my definition of being an introvert, I am actually okay in my own head. Like, I actually entertain myself. You could put me in a windowless room, and my own mind entertains me. I don't know how to explain it—like, I'm at peace. I'm with myself. And to me, that's the true definition of an introvert. It isn't "I don't like people," right? It's "I'm at peace with myself."

Because sometimes—and this is just for me—I am a pastor, so I'm a giver, and I minister to people. And so when I'm with people... my wife and I are completely different, actually. I start off like fully charged, and then I drain. But it's because I'm mainly giving. My wife, she's the opposite. She's also giving and ministering or whatever, but like, she recharges around people. So my wife went through a really hard time about a year ago when her dad died, and I actually, for the first time in like 15 years of marriage, I was like, "I know what she needs the most. She needs her friend, one of her girlfriends." So I flew one of her girlfriends out, knowing that my wife getting around her would energize her. For me, it's like the complete opposite. In the Arno test, they told me, they were like, "You getting away and being alone is actually necessary for your survival." It's like, it's not being selfish, quote-unquote. It's actually a survival mechanism.

A2: 100%. No, that's me. I relate to that 100%. As far as being in your mind, imagination, I believe, is really powerful. And as an artist, as a musician—you know, we both are that—we might not be directly involved in those industries, especially you, but imagination and just like the arts really puts me to a point where, like you said, I don't need anybody. All I need is something, you know, something to put my ideas down with.

Lately, that's been my phone, because I could just do voice memos. Before that, it was journals. Like, I had several journals over time, carried them with me everywhere, just write—it was poetry, it's like a combination of just like ideas and brainstorming. But I can sit in a noisy area and, you know, have enough stimuli around me, because that's like me. Because yeah, I'm an introvert for sure.

And I think like, that's like the best way to kind of like tell people, because the context that a lot of people see me now in is as a teacher, like teaching small kids. But if you see me outside that context, the two images do not match at all. So it's definitely something where it's like context, I believe, is super important. And that's definitely something I wanted to jump into next. Because what do you think—let's just take when you got your results back from the Arno test, and the person who gave you the test results said that she was shocked. What about that kind of gave her any other impression of, "You know, this guy's not an introvert"?

Mike: Yeah. Well, okay... I believe now, for those of you listening, you may or may not believe in God, you may not... you know, for me it's different. Like, I fundamentally have this spiritual existence, and it's sometimes contrary to my physical existence. And so for me, what happened was I was a late bloomer. Okay, so like in high school, I was that kid that just never... I wasn't the guy who was going to go up and just spit game at girls, and girls made me nervous. They made me sweat. Like, I wasn't...

A2: Oh yeah, social anxiety is a huge thing with introverts.

Mike: Yeah, it definitely was one of those things where it was like I had no confidence. I had no confidence. And so, at the same time though, I was a musician and I was in the punk scene. So I had this weird form of boldness where I would like dye my hair green and have this punk aesthetic. And music—it was like if there was a filter or a buffer between me and people. So if you put a guitar between me and people, I could be extroverted. You know, if you put...

A2: Same thing when I play piano at church. Like, if I'm playing piano in church, like, I'm good. But if I'm standing up to speak about anything, even just announcements, completely different game.

Mike: Well, that's the weird thing about me. Okay, so I preached my very first sermon at 15. And, you know, whether you believe it or not, the story is this woman came to me and had never met me before. She was walking down the street, her face turned ghost white, and she said—she was Hispanic—and she was like, "You know, mijo, I had a dream that you preached at my church and revival broke out, and all these young people got..." And I was so introverted at the time, I literally responded to her, "Woman, you're crazy." I was like, "I've never preached in my life. I'm 15 years old." And she was like, "No, it's you, it's you."

So she literally found out a little bit more about me because she lived on the same block, ended up reaching out to my pastor because she had caught me walking out of church, and told him the story. And he was like, "Do you know him? Like, this is not..." And long story short, she was so persistent about it that I finally—something else inside of me leapt up and said, "Yeah, I'll do it." And it was just the weirdest thing because I went to go preach, I was in this borrowed suit—because, you know, back in the day you had to preach in a suit, right? I mean, this is like the '90s basically. And I don't know, I transformed.

And it's weird because even like last Sunday, I can get up in front of... we packed out the space of Westbury for Easter, this epic thing, and I can make people laugh, make people cry. But it's when I have that task—that's the other thing about Arno. So I'm extremely choleric, so what that means is I'm driven, like I'm task-oriented. So when I'm on a stage, I have this goal, and my goal is transformation, right? Whoever is listening to this, you're going to get free, you're going to be transformed. You came in thinking one way, feeling one way, and you're going to leave different. So when I have that goal, that intermediary piece, I'm on.

But the thing is, like, if I'm in public and you run up to me and you want to have a conversation, and there's no like, necessarily like no immediate like lofty goal, right? I'm just not going to turn...

A2: Context, or just something to like latch onto as far as like, "What is the point of this interaction?"

Mike: Yeah, and I know that sounds super bad actually saying that out loud. It's basically like, "Do I small talk with this person because I have nothing else to say to them?" Yes. And it's weird because people have this... if your first experience is me on stage with 500 people in the audience, you would think to yourself, "This dude is really cool." Because I have a chance in my pre-writing to like formulate my ideas and put it all together and whatever. And then I always feel like I'm super disappointing to people in real life. This is like a real transparent moment, right? Like when I meet people and we interact, it never goes well.

Matter of fact, before you got here today, in my own personal study, I was watching TED Talks on how to have good conversations because I suck at that. And so I feel like people... if your first impression of me is like a conversation, it's so underwhelming. But then if I'm on stage, I literally can be foaming at the mouth, climbing over seats, going crazy, and you'd be like, "This dude is cool," right? It's a weird thing. And that's how you're introduced to 80% of the people these days, is on livestream or like in-person speaking. So that was it for me.

A2: But I relate to that so well because when I think about my teaching experience so far, I have a lot of introverts. So in private lessons, I believe that's a huge advantage. Huge advantage. Because I myself am an introvert, and I know like for every single student, it's like, "I need to talk more here, I need to talk less here." There's some students where like the more I talk, the worse of a situation I put myself in. And that's just the reality of it. Like, some people just don't like people talking around them. Like, some students don't like when I tell them like this or that thing, and then, you know, when I notice their body language, then I speak on it, and they're like, "Yes."

They'll never tell you—the introverts will never tell you—but if you speak to that situation, then they're going to be enabled to just say like, "Yes, this is what's happening," or "No, this is not what's happening." And I think that's kind of like the same thing with you. It's just, you know, if you know how to speak into a situation, especially because you're so task-oriented, then it allows you to like connect with people on a deeper level. But at the same time, like context is super important with navigating something such as introversion.

So to take it like a little step further back, because we've been talking about like you and then like the test and then like church, and then somewhere kind of like between church and culture... do they embrace this like very well? Because like you said, like, "Oh, like conversations have been kind of weird and stuff like that," and I relate to that too in like different aspects. I've learned to like observe body language so that I can kind of read the room like better, and it helps tremendously, but it's still like the conversation aspect—social anxiety, that becomes like a huge issue.

The podcast is nice, you know, because it allows me to break that barrier and be like, "Hey, I have something where like all I do is talk, so it's not going to be weird, right?" But if I just met somebody, then I have to like build a little bit of rapport because I'm not comfortable just starting with a conversation. So like your wife—we talked about your wife, I interviewed her yesterday—and it's just like at least 10 minutes of that goes into like, "Hi, how are you?" never seen her before like in person. So that's just an example. But like, what do you think about like culture as far as their understanding of like introversion? But not only their understanding of it, but like how they react to it, especially like with your stories.

Mike: Yeah, it's funny you say that because so, this for me, I feel like it's complicated. And this Arno test, it really broke it open. Because so, I'm introverted, but I'm also very choleric, which means I'm driven and I have like this this goal-oriented thing. But I'm not like psychopathic in the sense that... what they said is there's another layer to me in my affection where I really thrive off of depth. So like if I talk to you, I want to have a deep conversation, which makes this like... really like, I'm totally wired for this.

A2: That's why we're actually like getting along together really well since we've connected, because everything that you've said, I respect and value those things as well.

Mike: Yeah, so naturally like I'm going to gravitate towards that. But there's some other people who might be introverted, but in addition to that they're not choleric, right? You know, they're not like... they might not be as driven, like they might need a little bit more motivation, that type of thing.

A2: Yeah.

Mike: And that's the thing. So like... because what they were saying was if I didn't have that that sense of depth—like basically they said, "You're really wired to love people. You know, you have a deep and kind of profound love for people, and like you really want... you don't want to do surface level with people, you really want to get to know them." Which makes you a really good leader because you want to drive people to get the greatness out of them, but you're not using them. And then because you have the introversion, you don't public speak because you want the limelight, right?

So it was kind of a cool thing to actually look at it and say basically you're Frodo, where it's like you can carry the ring without turning evil, right? And you genuinely love people, so you're mission-oriented, but you also are relationship-oriented, and you don't need the limelight. Which I've tried to... but I've always felt so like... I'm older, I'm like the oldest you can be as a millennial, and social media for my part of the generation has always felt extremely narcissistic. So like... and in the church cultures I came from, self-promotion was like demonic. Like, it literally was like, "You don't promote yourself, like, you're promoting Christ. Like, who are you to try to make a name for yourself?" But then ironically, social media is all about pushing yourself.

So that's always been hard for me because most of what people see online is literally someone else driving me to do it. It's people saying... it's people from V1 Church and our team saying like... they making those sermon clips, like, they make them, I don't. And so because they're like, "What you said brought value, and we need a bigger audience to see it," it's been this weird tension for me the last couple years because I'm trying to navigate that. And it's like, I'm really... I'm not so good at small talk, you know? It gets weird for me, but I try to do it.

And then I think a lot of what you were talking about was emotional quotient, where you're trying to read the signs and you can see someone's face or whatever. But I think there's the other thing that's helped me in all of this, is just being a better listener.

A2: Yeah.

Mike: And like, because for me, I used to think like when I'm on stage, I'm monologuing. Like, you're not supposed to actually talk back to me—I mean, you can shout me down, but that's about it, it's not a real dialogue. And so social media is, I think, where I failed for a little while, was almost exclusively making that a monologue because I didn't know what I was doing. And so recently I've been trying to say like, "Okay, the best part about being an introvert is you can be a good listener."

A2: Yep.

Mike: And that's been a game changer because a lot of my conversations now are just me just lovingly staring people in their face, just being like, "Just talk to me."

A2: Yeah, and it's very enabling. I had that revelation recently too where listening in an exercise such as this episode, or teaching one of my students, listening is so, so, so, so crucial. Listening, I think, it's a form of speaking. I tell people all the time—I probably mentioned this on this podcast several times, probably sick of hearing it—but it's like, there are people who talk with their mouths instead of their ears... or like, they listen with their mouths instead of their ears, I think that's what it is.

And I think like, I always think about that phrase because it's just something that a lot of introverts in particular have, you know, been on the brunt end of where it's like they're trying to be understood, but they might be too young or too like inexperienced to handle like the emotional stress that comes with, "I'm shy and I don't like being around people, so let's go home," like as an example type of thing.

And it's interesting because I actually wanted to talk more about like the social media aspect because it adds a layer where it's like, you know, okay, this guy is a pastor on social media—I mean, a pastor that has social media and like he has clips and he's interacting and things like that—because like in my mind, I'm like, okay, this is dope. Like, he understands like not only how to use a platform, but he understands like what it's for, and the conversation is matching. This is great. So has that, as you've been able to navigate it better, has it become like more of an asset, or is it still something where it's just like at any given moment it is like a time bomb?

Mike: Well, so there's this woman, her name is Quanda, and she runs the I Need a Word page on Facebook and Instagram, and she's got over 3 million followers. And so me and her have an ongoing dialogue, you know, where she's like, "Man, I think you could break out. You know, like, I think that you're you're a young, relevant communicator, and I think that you could really... if you had a larger audience." So she's been like posting a lot of my clips and stuff like that, which has been really cool.

But the funny thing is, one of the key ingredients is going live. And that's the... that's where it gets weird, where it's like, I can post preaching clips that if like the team here, like between Dylan and Evan, are like cooking up preaching clips, and I can do that, and people like, "Oh, this helped me, thank you," and they reshare it, and I can interact with them and reciprocate all that. But then ironically, the thing that could benefit me the most is going live, but that's the thing... that's where I choke up.

So yesterday, I forced myself on Instagram to go live, and I had like a magnet mount in my car. So I had a magnet, I'm like, "You know what? I'm stuck in traffic, I'm just going to hit live and just talk to the windshield." And I had people on there—I probably was on for like 25 minutes—and I had people from like South Africa, Indonesia, these crazy places. And the crazier thing was they were telling me stories about how they've interacted with my content and how it's brought value to their life, and to me they were just random names.

A2: Yeah.

Mike: And it... and then when it was over... well, long story short, this guy requested to get on live with me, and I was like, "I'm going to roll the dice and just do it." And I accepted him, and he ended up being this guy from Hollywood, California, who was like, "I tune into all your stuff, man. It's helped me so much, you spit fire, blah blah blah." And it was this weird like pseudo-relationship where I don't know this guy's name, I've never seen his face before in my life, but he feels like he knows me. And then he's like, "I'm organizing this big conference in Hollywood, I want you to come out and speak and blah blah blah." And I was like, "Wow, like..." But my refusal to go live this whole time was holding back this circuitry that could like build these relationships.

And so I think like for me, that kind of speaks to—and whoever's listening, maybe this will help you too—like, your inborn personality doesn't have to be your destiny.

A2: Mhm.

Mike: So like, you... you know, I'll put it like this. Like, you don't want to go to the gym, but you pushing past what you want produces health. You go to the gym, you have a healthier body. So there are times where you have to find like, what's the healthy boundaries of introversion, and then at what point do you push yourself? And then you pushing yourself produces health. Because I'm... here's another thing. Like, you know when you're like, "I don't want to go to the gym, I don't want to go, I don't want to go," and then you finally go and you're 15 minutes in and the endorphins start flying and you're like, "I'm so glad I did this"? That for me as an introvert is what that is—what stepping out of my comfort zone feels like.

A2: Yep.

Mike: Like, I get 10 minutes into it and I'm like, "Oh, I'm so glad I went live and I'm talking to all these people, I'm so glad that I... you know, blah blah blah." And that was what preaching felt like the first time. Like, the first five minutes my hand was shaking violently, I was stuttering over my words, and then I just felt like I got hit by a lightning bolt and just did it. And I'm like, "I'm so glad I did this," right? So you've got to find those healthy boundaries with it. I think if anything, like as I've gotten older, I've tried to like model that for other introverts, you know? Cuz you can take anything and... like, I had a college roommate who took his introversion and used it as an excuse to drink, you know? And for him, alcohol was like his social lubricant. And so he just used it as an excuse because he didn't have courage, he didn't have the guts to push himself a little bit, you know? So it's like, you can take that and take it to the dark side real easy.

A2: For sure, and I'm glad that you went there because I wanted to talk about like, what is it about introversion that people should be happy about? Because I feel like a lot of people take extroverts because they're a lot more liable to be on social media and to present themselves, promote themselves—and not even on social media, just in real life—and do all these same things where they're confidently or seemingly confidently going through life. And introverts like me look at that, and I'm just like, you know, "I wish I had that," or, you know, comparison and things like that. So what is it about your introversion and the way you've talked about empowering other people—which I think is dope—what is it about all of that that you kind of just bring home with people to kind of remind them that, you know, this... you know, again kind of like adding to, just because you're born with it doesn't mean like, you know, it's final. Like, there's a good in that, you know what I mean?

Mike: Yeah, that's that's a great question. For me, I think it comes down to understanding that some people's extraversion is coming from a a wound in and of itself.

A2: That's very true.

Mike: Because they're... they were rejected, and so they're like... but introversion could be the result of a wound too, if you... you know, so you really have to examine like, "What's the source?" Which goes back to my original definition, which my definition of an introvert is: I'm at peace with myself and I enjoy myself. Like, the greatest conversation is happening in my head most of the time because I am a creator. So like... and even like my daughter, she'll look at me when we're driving in the car and she'll be like, "You're writing a sermon, aren't you?"

A2: Mhm.

Mike: Because she knows there's something going on in there. And that's me—like, I'm in the car, I'm sitting like... it's ideas, and like, it comes even faster because like you don't have a screen, you don't have a keyboard to like put them down, so you don't get distracted with other stuff. But like, I'm sitting in the car for like 25 minutes to work and I'm like, "Man, these ideas just keep coming, and I have nobody to give them to." But that's just life.

A2: Yeah.

Mike: And, you know, for me, I definitely need and want to be around people. It's just my dosage is lower. And I think that... okay, it's... you know what it is? It's a lot like... I went to the doctor like about a year ago to get a routine checkup, and she was like, "Your vitamin D levels are like dramatically low." So she prescribed me 50,000 units of vitamin D that I was taking once a week. Well, that dosage is what I required to get my vitamin D up to normal, right? But if somebody with normal levels took that, it would become toxic.

A2: Yep.

Mike: So it's like, you have to prescribe the level of interaction that's going to bring you to a level of health. And that's how I look at it. Like, if... and so for me, if your extraversion is a root of rejection, then you need to heal that root of rejection, and you might find yourself a little less extroverted because you're not seeking people's approval. And then if you're introverted but it's because you were rejected and you've given up on people, then the very thing you need to be prescribed is to be around people.

Like in psychotherapy, if you... if you're deathly afraid of puppies because you think these puppies are going to murder you, you know, like some irrational fear, right? They're going to first bring you a stuffed puppy, like a stuffed dog, and then they're going to graduate you to where like, so many weeks down the line, you're handling a real puppy. Because the thing you need the most is the thing you fear the most. So in psychotherapy, that's like... and there's a fundamental understanding. So for me, it's like, is your introversion fear-based? If it's fear-based, there's some issues that need to be dealt with, like maybe some childhood stuff from your past.

For me, I'll be honest, I had multiple abusive step... you know, I was raised in extreme poverty, like... so there some of my introversion I have questioned, like, was it easier to just lock myself in my room than face, you know, Dad or whatever? Like, and I felt for me it was very difficult to be around men. Like, grown men scared me. Those were like the puppies where everyone else was like, "What's wrong with you?" But it was like they... so I had to get healing in that area. And over the last several years, it's... it's fine now, right? And so it just... there's... that's what I'm saying. Like, when you're trying to navigate this stuff, it's like it's so complex. But if you will examine...

A2: Self-awareness.

Mike: Yes, it's just as you grow in that, you get more comfortable in who you are, and you know why, though, right? You know...

A2: Definitely. And, you know, you talked about like men that were in your life that intimidated you. For me, it was females. Like, females that were like my age specifically. So, and I want to get into like emotional health and stuff like that because it's what comes into it. But when we talk about experiences that you recall as far as what makes you act the way that you act... one of those—a lot of what those experiences were for me was definitely... yeah, welcome to New York podcast, yeah, exactly. We've had conversations about this off the record, but on the record, I haven't dated anybody in almost a decade.

And when you talk about experiences that you have to dig back into as far as understanding where you're hurt and where a lot of your rationale comes from, I think about those experiences growing up. Emotional health wasn't something that we talked about a lot, if at all. But now we talk about it, and that has allowed me to think back to a lot of those experiences. So when I think about the way that I've reacted in some ways, or the resentment that I have, you know, harbored from these bad experiences, it just comes back to just how I understand myself. Because now those memories with those people are just experiences, and it's all in my head, and how I internalize it is going to dictate how other people are going to respond to it.

And that self-awareness for me... like, I went back to my old college town like last month, and my boss, who I'd been working with for like six years, she noticed that like self-awareness for me had taken a huge leap. Because especially over the past two years, I had to like really dig down and like go into like the archives and things that I locked away as far as experiences, and like, and open those up and figure out the why for everything. I'll just be sitting somewhere like at work, or like 4:00 a.m. in like a car to a plane or something like that, because like, I can remember those times where like all of a sudden I just think about a very, very specific story and a very specific person, and then recognize, "This is why I'm reacting this way."

And I feel like a lot of times in introversion in particular, when you know you say that you're very comfortable with being by yourself, a lot of people aren't comfortable in being by themselves and addressing those demons and addressing those situations and getting to a point of self-awareness because fear keeps holding them back. So where does that—where does self-awareness come along the way as far as, you know, getting to a point in your introversion or even extraversion where it's like, "Okay, now like I think that I finally understand like why I operate the way I am and I'm happy with that," right? You know...

Mike: I think for me, it's one of the beauties of... like, okay, not everyone grows up. A lot of people peak in high school and then repeat that year every single year till they die. Like, I pastor a lot of 17-year-olds in their mind, 43-year-olds in their body, and they just repeat that year every single year. You know, people are like, "I have 20 years of experience." I'm like, "No, you don't. You have one year that you repeated 20 times."

A2: Wow. So talk about it.

Mike: Well, so like the same thing happens emotionally, where it's like emotionally you are 15 years old, but physically you're 52. And I think for me, I've had to go on this crazy journey of journaling and reading and counseling and mentorship. Like, I have mentors in my life, and as I've gone on that journey, things have made more sense. And then honestly, being married has helped tremendously because my wife is a mirror for me. And initially, when you meet someone, you know, it's all about the attraction, it's about what you like. And then as you get through all those layers, then it's about what you don't like, and you start calling that stuff out. And if you can survive that phase, and what... and if they love you enough to tell you true things about yourself, you can grow.

So like, Mahatma Gandhi... when they asked him, "You know, how is it that you turn colonialism on its side? You know, how is it that you understand nonviolent resistance?" And he's like, "Marriage taught me this. Like, I changed a whole nation out of what my marriage was a mirror in my own life for." And I think that for me, my wife has been a mirror for me that's helped me evolve where she's like, "Mike..." You know, she at times has forced me, you know like, "You need to do this, you need to do that." And it's... it's helped me when I've been like, "She's saying this out of love." Like a good mentor, they'll point things out of love, right? As well.

And a good counselor has... I remember one of the biggest breakthroughs that I had in counseling was the counselor telling me, "Go back to the places where you experienced the greatest pain in your life and ask God, where was He when it happened?" And so I went back to these physical locations alone and then said, "Okay, God, where were You?" And there was something about the the loneliness of that moment when I started to have this awareness, for me as a Christian, of God's presence, and then that... and then truly never feeling alone in in that kind of sense.

So like... because I think for me, where introversion goes toxic is when you're not at peace with yourself, because then you never truly are alone, because it's you and the demons.

A2: Yep.

Mike: It's you and the nightmare memories that you have. So... but but then what you need the most is loneliness, but you don't have true loneliness in the sense of being alone in in a tranquil place—it's in a place of torment. And so for me, it was like, you know, by exercising some of those demons and then making some space for the Holy Spirit, I found this place where I can be alone but not lonely, right? Which I think is the aim of true introversion, is to be alone but not lonely.

A2: You'll find that a lot of like people people that are out there, you know, don't have trouble finding people. Introverts on the other hand—and like I could definitely relate to this in some way or another—I don't know how it was like before you met Julie, but it was a lot harder to like meet people because of the fact that... or just like even maintain a relationship with people, especially when you factor in things that kind of gave you a hard time growing up and then now you're just like, "Okay, how do like I circumvent this?" type of thing.

So what is it about like singlehood and introversion that kind of like overlap? Because I feel like there's something that could definitely be said about those types of things. A lot of times those conversations are manifest in just like everything from like memes to just like, you know, photos that people will put up. I think it was the Drake lyric where it's like, "I know a girl who's hurting but her latest photo caption is 'leave me alone,'" that type of thing.

Mike: Yeah, man. It... I'm telling you, okay, mark my words. If my wife dies and it it renders me single, I'm castrating myself and just moving to the mountains because like, this this game is so different than when I was... you know, because there's like... I'm a little bit older, dude. I've... I lead a lot of people who are single, and so by virtue of like leading and mentoring them, I'm I'm like in the game but not in the game, you know? And the level that it's changed... like, I see the profile pictures that are posted on these dating sites, and they all look fake. Like, 100% of them look fake to me. They look like there's a lot of catfishing involved for sure.

But there... but you know what, even the ones that are real, like I I'll be like... I'll tell somebody I'm mentoring like, "Dude, that's not a real woman." And then he'll go meet her for a date and take a picture with her and be like, "She was real," you know? But it just was like the... it's not even extraversion, it's presentation.

A2: Yeah, the superficiality of it.

Mike: Yeah, the superficiality of the presentation is through the roof, and these pictures are like... and it's just because of the technology and what's available. These pictures all look like magazine covers to me. And then so so because of the image that we've been like forced down our... that's the only standard that's acceptable, is like this high-res crazy and, "Do it for the Instagram." So it's this weird realm, man, where it's like, if you're introverted and you already don't want to put yourself out there, but then the people who are winning in the dating game are putting out like GQ quality photos, right? You're you're already like the whole table has tilted against you.

Like, dude, I mean, not to... I mean, this is totally dating myself, but my wife and I met in the early 2000s. That's like almost 20 years ago, right? And I remember I was an early adopter for technology, and I had one of the first like digital cameras, like actual just handheld whatever. And phones certainly didn't have cameras yet.

A2: Yep.

Mike: I mean, we were still playing Snake on like our Nokias when we were dating. And so you really had to meet someone in real life. And then Facebook debuted while I was in college, cuz Zuckerberg's my age, and I'll... and it... I'll never forget it. It went from the Ivy Leagues to the Big Ten, and I was at Indiana University. And I remember hearing like, "Dude, there's this this this thing, Facebook." And the first thing I used it for was to stalk this chick in my English class. That was the first thing I did because I was introverted, I didn't have the courage to talk to her, and there was this middle ground, dude. There was this middle ground where I was just like, "Oh, like maybe I can find that chick in my English class." And um... and so, but it's weird because it didn't help me, it almost...

And I think that's the thing about social media, is it made... it can make it worse because there's an illusion of it being—of something being obtainable. Like, I can look at their picture, I can see into their life...

A2: It's accessible.

Mike: It's accessible.

A2: But not attainable.

Mike: Yeah, and that's the thing that like... I remember feeling that. Ironically, I met my wife though, while I was playing a concert, pretty much. So I had that...

A2: Yeah, that barrier.

Mike: I was performing on stage, playing the guitar, singing, looking at her...

A2: Context.

Mike: Yeah, and I was looking at her and she was in the audience. And in that moment, I'm Mike Sigs with the trucker hat, playing the guitar, being cool guy. And ironically, that didn't help me with my wife cuz she's immune to that, and she actually had the wrong perception of me, and my introvert perception would have been a better first like step, but I didn't know that.

A2: But in that moment, you at least understood that, "I'm in my element, and there's something that is attainable." And it is attainable because it's in real life. The same type of experience is not going to happen online. 10 years ago—like when when Facebook debuted, I remember when Facebook debuted as well, and when it went like bigger than the Big Ten, and I remember the same sensation and same disappointment of looking up a girl just to look her up. Same disappointment now, same then. 10 years ago, same now. And it's all because of what you said, like, it's accessible but it's not attainable.

But for introverts, it's so tricky, and even for extroverts too. Like, I'll just go ahead and say this: my father is an extrovert. And because we have the same name, I knew for a very long time—until I could finally say it, but I knew this for a very long time in my head—that because my personality was just so contrast to him, like, that affected how we interacted, not only because we had the same name but because he's Haitian. Haitians are very dynamic individuals. And there is a level of that to me.

You know, like, a friend's getting married on Sunday. I plan on you know, actually being extroverted for once, and I put it in my calendar. I'm just like, "This is like... I've had this date on my calendar... this is the day that I'm actually being extroverted." I told I told her, I was like, "Yo, like I'm going to have fun," like you know what I'm saying? Because when I'm at work, like, this is not how I'm going to be, so just enjoy that.

Mike: Love it.

A2: Yeah, and you and you have to make that clear. And I feel like making those boundaries, I feel like, is another thing too where people can really take to heart and just claim your boundaries. Claim your boundaries, but have an open dialogue as far as how you got there. Cuz you know, this this podcast is just one of my examples where I've opened up and talked about, "This is how I met this person, this is how I've come to this idea, this is why I believe what I believe," and things like that. Creating those boundaries and creating the conversation definitely helps as well.

And you've mentored a lot of these single people, which I'm sure a good portion of them have some introvert qualities. So, what has been like—just to kind of wrap this up—what has been like a breakthrough for like, in terms of a general story? What has been a breakthrough as far as just a concept, something that we haven't talked about, but particularly with inversion—not inversion, introversion—particularly with introversion and even now, singlehood? Because the two are very related. You know, we're talking about 2019, like Instagram is rampant right now. People are going to listen to this in like 2030 and like talk about something else, but right now like everything is visually oriented, and it could become like a very dangerous echo chamber for a lot of people, especially single people like me. So what have been some of the conversations that you've had with these people?

Mike: Yeah, so I was reading a book recently that said something that really convicted me. It said that if you're exhausted being around people, you're actually exhausted from being the false you. And what they what they proposed is that like, if you... because okay, so like for me... you know how like when you're around a group of people, there's things in your mind that you want to do? You're like, "I want to check my phone, I want to... I want to sit down," right? But then you're with people and you tell yourself, "I can't do that, though." They said that the more authentic you are, and the more the more you honor what you want to do, the less exhausted you'll be.

A2: And they were... it's a different kind of exhaustion, though.

Mike: Yeah, exactly. But they were basically saying like, if you're with a group of people and you don't want to talk to them, don't talk to them. Just be your authentic self, and then people are going to have to adjust around what you really are, not what you're projecting.

A2: It's all frame.

Mike: Yes. And so I was basically trying to tell people like, you don't... you can't build a lasting relationship with a girl off of what you're not. So you can't prop it all up and pretend like you're something. It doesn't mean you don't put your best foot forward, but be your authentic self because that's what she's going to marry. You know, you can't like... you know, there's... I'll put it like this. It's the equivalent of catfishing in real life because you project something in reality, so you catfish somebody in reality. Like, it's the meta-catfishing.

A2: Wow.

Mike: It's like... and that's what I... and so for me now, I'm not... this is something I'm I'm like... I'm like learning this now. I'm just trying to be myself all the time and give myself some lateral movement to say, "Here's what I want to do and not do." So I've been just coaching people like, this girl is going to have to fall in love with the real you, so just be that.

And then the other thing too, though, that I would pair that with—because this is where it gets a little complex—is I think a lot of introvert/extrovert is risk-taking, and sometimes you're just saying like, "I don't want to take that risk." So like last night, we had V1 College, and V1 College is like a leadership kind of... it's like a leadership pipeline that we have through V1 Church where you can grow. And so I had made up my mind, the same thing, I was like, "Tonight I'm being fun, I'm being extroverted, I'm loving on people." So I had got those 100 Grand bars and I was like handing them out, was like, "Who wants a 100 Grand?" you know? And I was like, "You killed it in this, you get 100 Grand." I'm laughing, I'm like intentionally taking a risk, you know?

And so sometimes with some of these young guys in the dating sphere, I've said, "You just need to like step out, take a risk." And they they're like, "What would you say?" And it kind of got dicey a couple of times because I was like, "I don't know, I would say blank," and they typed it out verbatim and sent it, and I'm like, "Oh snap, like don't tell..." you know? But like, just helping them cross that barrier, because a lot of what I think it means to be introverted is to restrict the risk, you know? Where you're restricting that risk and saying, "I'm just..." because if you don't risk anything, you you can't get hurt.

A2: Mhm. At least that's the perception.

Mike: But so much of love is built on risk.

A2: Built on risk, yeah. People tell me that time and again, and like, or even just talk about it like in general. And like, I see it, it's a real thing for sure. Like, my dad just came back from Haiti last night, and you see the effect that it has like whenever my dad travels for any point in time, like on my mom and things like that. But these are part of the risks that we have to take, you know? Traveling overseas is a risk, traveling in general is a risk. You know, we've had like some conversations about like Boeing lately, you know? Like traveling is like not the... you know, traveling is not always safe, and that type of thing, we have to be aware of that.

But you talked about choice. I grew up in a context where taking risks and making choices was looked down upon. And I think a lot of people like coming from traditional backgrounds in particular, everything is built on, "This is the way it's done," and nothing can kind of deviate from that. So when you enter an introvert with a very creative mind, just like you and I are, and you find yourself like in this context time and time again, you get a little bit more apprehensive to the idea of taking risks because of the fact that you were never allowed to do that in the first place. And whenever you started taking risks yourself, it's like, "Oh wow, like..." you know, all hell breaks loose at that point.

Mike: Yeah.

A2: And it's it's kind of wild because whenever I meet a lot of kids that I might relate to in one way or another—you know, my students are not like... especially if they grew up Caribbean or Asian or like in a church context—like, I see that. Like, I look... I look at their eyes, I look at their mannerisms, and like, I see... I see like all of the conversations, like I see all of the, "Why can't I do this?" And like, at a very early age, like, you can see the lasting impression that it has.

So what has that... have you have you experienced that, like where like in your introversion you've had to, you know like, deal with the fact that you might not have had a choice and it's affected you like later down the road? Or have you seen that in other people that you've been like leading, you know, not even for singlehood—like just, you know, people that you have met? Because I feel like that's definitely a real obstacle for a lot of people, especially with introverts.

Mike: Yeah, I completely agree. So in life, this is my philosophy now. This is like 2019, hot off the press. You either jump or you get pushed. Like, you're... that's it. So you have to... for me, I like... like for example, my wife rejected me the first five times I asked her out. And as an introvert, that's devastating. But there was something deeper inside of me that was like, "Deep calls to deep." There was something inside of me that just knew in this esoteric way that this woman was going to be my wife, and so I just kept re-upping on risk, which violated everything about who I am. But there was something deeper that was just like provoking that, and so I jumped. And then I jumped again and jumped again.

But then I look at other people that are single for extended periods of time... and some of it is risk-related, where it's like they don't want to take that risk, they don't want to take that chance. And then time basically provokes them to the point where it becomes this proverbial wall up against their back and sort of pushes them, you know, into these situations. And so I always think to myself like, "Do I want to be pushed, or do I want to jump? Like, do I want to voluntarily choose this thing, or do I want it to choose me?" Because, I don't know, it's a very difficult thing, man.

And like, so for me, I haven't had... when I think about choice, I really I think to myself like—and maybe this is the choleric part of me talking now that I actually say it out loud, because the choleric part of me is like, there's there's something to be done, there's something to be accomplished, and the feeling of accomplishment is greater in my mind than the feeling of failure.

A2: Mhm.

Mike: Like, and so for me, I just will make that choice. But but that—a lot of that is my personality. So then people I mentor, and I've had some of them take the Arnold profile test as well, and it's revealed like they just don't have that thing in them. And I think good mentors will... you can borrow from their personality and you can do... you can...

And I see... okay, so for example, as a pastor, I've realized—because I've been pastoring now for years—and I've realized that most people don't come to me with authentic questions. They come to me with statements in the form of questions. So they've already made up their mind. they're asking it like, "What would you do?" but they either have already done it and they're lying, or they've already made up their mind they're going to do it and they came to me to get confirmation.

A2: Mhm. What unseats that prideful mentality?

Mike: Well, I think it's like you have to make a decision in yourself that, "This person's life—if I could reverse engineer it into my life, I want that." And so when they tell you to do something, even if it just goes against everything that you feel and think is right, you do it anyways. So like for example, my pastor is Dave Gargano, and he... and so he's my mentor, and we're wired differently in certain ways. And so there were times where I'd be like, "This dude's wrong. I don't think that what he's saying will work." But then also, his life had had so much success that I'm like, "Okay, the total sum of all of his choices equaled his life, so maybe I'm wrong."

I started—and I called it "experiments with obedience"—like, "I'm I'm going to experiment with obedience right now, and I'm going to override my introversion, I'm going to override my gut and everything I think is right, and just straight up submit and just do what this dude's saying to do." And I got huge results, and then it would rewire my brain to be like, "Okay, the feeling is still there, but the mentality's changed." Cuz I think somebody's lying... for example, every time I preach, I sweat profusely. Every time I preach, I'm nervous. Every time I preach, I think to myself in the first several moments, "I don't want to be up here right now." And I've been preaching since the late '90s, and it's 2019—it's never changed, right? But the mentality changed. Like, the feeling remained, but the mentality changed. And I think a lot of people think that the feeling's going to change.

A2: Mhm.

Mike: But it's... it's like, what if it never does, you know? What if the feeling never changes? And for me, and this is another thing I'm learning right now, because I've had this incredible opportunity in the last like five years to... as I've accumulated more influence, I've attracted more influencers. So now I find myself hanging with like millionaires, with people with large churches, whatever. And and that introversion is there, but I just keep telling myself, "If I can push through this, through repeated interaction, I'll get familiarity and it won't be as scary."

A2: Yeah.

Mike: So I keep telling myself like, "I'm not cool with this person now, I'm so nervous right now, I hate being in this situation, but I love that this person's in my life. And if I can keep subjecting myself to this, one day it's going to be normal," right?

A2: See, the second half of that sentence, a lot of people don't add that. They just leave that first half. It's... that's it. It's excuse, excuse, excuse. But it's excuse, excuse, excuse, but yeah... motivation, but incentive, but um, things like that.